'Barely Contained Chaos'
Michael Jensen & Brent Hartinger on traffic, ladyboys, and 7-Eleven in Thailand
Welcome to Wanderlust Salon, a monthly travel series about new places, new experiences, and new perspectives. Each month we meet up with a different guest to explore a corner of the globe that’s left a permanent mark on their heart.
I believe everyone should travel solo at least once in their lives. (No one to answer to! No one to compromise with! No one to tell you, “Sam, you’ve already had three cappuccinos today” when you spot a cute coffee shop.) But there is nothing quite like seeing the world with someone you love—someone who indulges your idiosyncrasies, who can confirm that yes, that crazy thing really did just happen, and who years later will turn to you and say, “remember when?”
It’s this dynamic that drew me to
and , a married couple who have been traveling together full-time for seven years and documenting it all in . They are what I’d call “deep travelers”—they stay somewhere for months at a time, getting to know the landscape, the food, the culture—and they spent much of 2023 in Thailand, one of their favorite places.There is so much Brent and Michael love about Thailand, from the energy (Michael calls it “an incredible blend of sights and sounds”) to the rich, complex curries. But the best thing about it? “For me, it’s the people,” says Brent. Heartfelt connections are a common theme throughout Brent and Michael’s travel writings, and they are willing to be vulnerable to get to know their hosts. That might look like grabbing a super soaker and participating in Thailand’s annual ritual water fight, or striking up conversations with random people on benches (which Michael has been known to do all over the world).
Brent sees this mindset as a core tenet of traveling ethically. “Basically, listen more than you talk. And show gratitude!” He says. “[This] makes it more likely you’ll make a genuine connection with other people, which is what travel is all about.”
Brent and Michael are leading exactly the sort of life I aspire to—adventuring with my person, as widely as I can, for as long as I can—and building kinship with other cultures while they do it. In every place Brent and Michael set foot, they prove there is so much love, joy, and humor to be found in our world, if we’re brave enough to seek it out.
Read on for Brent and Michael’s fascinating insights on Thailand.
Thank you so much for stopping by Caravanserai, Brent and Michael! I’d love to hear more about your personal connection to Thailand—how much time have you spent there, and why?
MICHAEL: We’ve been to Thailand three times now and will definitely go back. But the first time we went was to meet friends rather than a burning desire to go. I think that’s because it was our first trip to Southeast Asia, and we were a bit intimidated.
We spent three months on the island of Koh Lanta, and were only somewhat impressed. But because we were with very good friends, we had a blast anyway.
Our second trip, last year, was two months in Bangkok, and I fell in love with the city. Well, except for the heat and humidity, which is truly astonishing.
BRENT: And then, after leaving for a bit due to some visa issues, we returned to spend a couple of months in Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai in Northern Thailand.
By this point, we’d both fallen very deeply in love with the country, and the northern area might be our favorite part of all.
What is your favorite thing about Thailand? What makes it unique? Tell us about the sights, smells, and tastes!
BRENT: For me, it’s the people, who are just lovely, and the food, which is even better than you expect. I’d loved “Thai food” back in America, but of course, it’s fairly different in Thailand. I asked a Thai friend why it’s so good, and she laughed and said, “Because it’s cooked with love!”
But it’s not really a joke. One thing I didn’t expect is that, in addition to being different from Thai food in America, Thai food is different all over the country: spicier down south, and with more curries up north. And then it all comes together in a delicious blend in Bangkok, where your taste buds and your heart will all sing a very happy song.
MICHAEL: I really love the vibrancy of Bangkok. It’s an incredible blend of sights and sounds: neon signs, buzzing motorcycles and tuk-tuks, street food vendors spilling out onto the sidewalks, hungry Thai sitting on little plastic chairs eating noodles.
And I couldn’t get enough of Bangkok’s Chinatown, which epitomizes the city’s barely contained chaos. Every time I wandered down the sois—narrow side streets—I had myself a different mini-adventure. The Chinese man getting a fish pedicure who for some strange reason insisted I take his picture. Or stumbling into a tiny hidden neighborhood dominated by a huge spirit tree covered with dozens and dozens of ribbons.
What is the biggest cultural difference between Thailand and your home in the U.S.? Have you experienced any moments of significant culture shock in Thailand?
BRENT: Thailand is currently experiencing a period of rapid economic and cultural change. It’s become quite prosperous in a very short period, a matter of decades. A Thai person might see it differently, but I think it’s an exciting time to be there, with enough of the traditional culture still in existence to delight and explore. But there’s also a growing sophistication, as well as a sense of optimism about the future.
But man, that Bangkok traffic! I appreciate that Michael appreciated the chaos, but I found it difficult. And incredibly, everyone told us how it’s much less insane now that at least some of the city is served by the metro and sky-train.
MICHAEL: Unlike America, where most folks go home at the end of the day, the Thai often eat out. Like in many Asian countries, many Thai apartments have almost no kitchens. Instead, the Thai eat street food or go to their favorite local restaurant. They seem much more social than Americans.
What is something about Thailand that those who haven’t been there might not expect? What do you want people to know about it?
MICHAEL: How different it is geographically from top to bottom. Northern Thailand is lush and remote, filled with jungle-covered mountains, beautiful waterfalls, and, yes, rice paddies. It’s also full of discoveries, from a little town full of expat drop-outs and hippies to a Chinese village occupied by the descendants of Chinese soldiers who fled China in the 1960s.
Central Thailand is flat, and hot, and dominated by Bangkok.
And Southern Thailand—the long skinny bit hanging off of the north like a tail—is famed for its beaches, tropical islands, and spicy food.
BRENT: Thailand really is an amazing blend of the old and the new, from the temples, which are absolutely everywhere, to the shopping malls, which are equally spectacular.
I think there literally might be a temple on every block of this country. And also a 7-Eleven! No seriously, it’s a national institution. So random.
What’s the craziest/funniest/most touching thing to have happened to you in Thailand?
MICHAEL: One morning, this man outside a temple in Chiang Mai started calling out to me. He was a short man in his fifties, and at first, I assumed it was a scam. Except it was 7am and it was hard to imagine a scammer getting up that early.
But no, he wanted to talk and had soon told me he was the Muay Thai Champion of Bangkok of 1988.
It was when I mentioned my husband and he realized I was gay that things took a very odd turn. He was married to a woman, but asked what I thought of Thailand’s “ladyboys”—transgender women who work as prostitutes.
When I told him I had no experience with ladyboys, he was shocked. Then he insisted I needed to visit them as soon as possible.
I passed, but he insisted I needed to go. Finally, I said, “If you’re so keen on them, why don’t you go?”
“I’m afraid of them!” he said.
“But you’re the Muay Thai Champion of Bangkok of 1988. You shouldn’t be afraid of anything.”
“Ladyboy cock very big!” he said, leaping to his feet and proceeding to waddle around bow-legged. “Too much for me!”
Well, I certainly hadn’t seen that twist coming, but I appreciated his apparent open-mindedness!
BRENT: Uh, I’m not even going to try to top that story.
What are your favorite Thai foods and why? Are there any dishes that bring back special memories?
BRENT: A Thai friend invited us to Jae Ang Moo Satay, a little restaurant she runs with her boyfriend and his mother, and a whole crew of staff that the mother had hired because most of them had nowhere else to go. The waitress was a young girl who had become pregnant, her family hadn’t been supportive, and they now all lived in apartments above the restaurant.
But as heartwarming as that was, the food was even better. One of the most popular dishes in Thailand is a fairly simple one, pad kra pao, pork with basil served over rice, and it was terrific. But the restaurant’s signature dish is the chicken or pork satay with a peanut sauce made with massaman curry, a “sweet” curry. I didn’t know this at the time, but massaman curry is made with cardamom, cloves, star anise, cumin, cinnamon, bay leaves, nutmeg, and mace—and also traditional Thai flavors like chilis, coriander, lemongrass, white pepper, galangal, garlic, and shrimp paste.
It was one of the best things I’ve ever tasted, and also the most complicated! The restaurant makes fifteen big vats of the stuff every day, and they sell it all.
MICHAEL: Here’s a “special” memory, but it isn’t a fun one. I’d gone to the Chatuchak Weekend Market, the largest outdoor bazaar in Thailand. I know it was May 6th because that's the day the temperature hit 41 degrees Celsius (104 Fahrenheit), the hottest ever recorded in Bangkok. That might not sound that bad but with the humidity, it felt awful.
So I was already boiling hot.
Hungry, I ordered the innocuous-sounding Thai basil chicken. It was not innocuous. It is the single hottest thing I’ve ever eaten and on an insanely hot day. Yes, hot foods and drinks are supposedly good on hot days, but I did not find having my mouth on fire to be helpful.
I might be smiling in this picture, but I was effing miserable.
If I had 24 hours in Thailand and travel time wasn’t a factor, how would you tell me to spend it?
MICHAEL: I might spend the whole day in Bangkok. You can’t go wrong! Start in Chinatown, pick a direction, and just go.
BRENT: Two of my favorite Thai memories involve caves. Tham Nam Lod in northern Thailand is a massive cave with a massive river running through it, and visitors explore a section of the cave on bamboo rafts propelled by men with long poles. Our ferryman was probably seventy years old, although he had the body of a thirty-year-old. Daily exercise pays off, I guess!
The second cave was Emerald Cave in southern Thailand, and it was impressive in a different way. It’s one of those classic “Thai” rocky sea stacks jutting up out of the ocean. But this one happens to be hollow, with a pirate cove inside, a little crescent beach, and a small green jungle reaching up to a volcano-like opening at the top. Even better, the only way to see it is to swim in at low tide through a fifty-meter sea cave.
But be forewarned! The Thai are not big on safety regulations. Our “guide” was a twelve-year-old boy who didn’t speak English, with one flashlight for all of us.
When traveling, is there a version of yourself that takes center stage? Who are you when you’re traveling that you’re not when you’re at home?
MICHAEL: I honestly think that I’m more myself when traveling than at any other time. From the moment I read C.S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia, I was determined to find my own wardrobe to take me to another world. I was lucky enough to finish high school in Australia, and after college, I moved to Seattle, partly because it was up in the corner of the U.S., as close to leaving the States as I could manage at that time. I actually became a flight attendant, largely to give me the time to write, but also because it meant I was able to constantly be going somewhere new.
So wanderlust is in my DNA and when I’m exploring a new city, I feel alive in a way few other activities make me feel.
BRENT: Oh, I really like Michael’s answer! I wish I was more myself when traveling, but I don’t think I am, mostly because I usually spend a lot of time in my head, being self-conscious and overthinking things. Travel knocks me out of that and forces me to be much more in the moment. It’s a better version of me.
Do you make efforts to travel ‘ethically’? What does that mean to you?
MICHAEL: We do try. We try to limit our carbon footprint, flying less and taking trains, ferries, or cars when possible. If we stay at Airbnbs, we try very hard to make sure we’re renting from locals, and not a conglomeration that’s bought up a bunch of properties.
BRENT: When traveling, I think it’s really important to remember that you’re a guest in someone else’s country—someone else’s home. That means a lot of things, especially being respectful of local traditions and sensibilities, and also being open to new ideas. Basically, listen more than you talk. And show gratitude! Not only is this essential for privileged Westerners like Michael and me, but it also makes it much more likely you’ll make a genuine connection with other people, which is what travel is all about.
Thank you so much for chatting, Brent and Michael! Subscribe to Brent and Michael Are Going Places for more funny, thoughtful reflections on nomad life, plus some excellent practical travel tips.
In case you missed it…
In the past couple weeks, I wrote about remembering my dad while eating my way through Rome, and sent paid subscribers a piece of autofiction that explores my experience as the “trailing spouse” of a diplomat.
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Next week, free subscribers will get a tell-all about my approach to travel and how to make the most out of your trip. Paid subscribers will get a research essay about the role of women and spouses in the American Foreign Service—and how we perhaps haven’t made as much progress as we like to think. Upgrade below to follow along!
Reader, I’m curious…
Who would you love to travel the world with? Your significant other? A friend? A favorite literary character? Sound off in the comments!
This interview is wonderful, Samantha. The humour, the vividness, the thoughtfulness! This Salon series just gets better and better! Last year we spent almost a month in Bangkok and it remains one of mine and my husband’s favourite cities on the planet. Special shoutout to the street-fried chicken (we remain at an impasse about whether it’s the best fried chicken in the world…), the mango sticky rice (definitely the best dessert on the planet!), the MINDBLOWING street life, and completely intoxicating pulse of the city. Absolutely nowhere is like Bangkok! 🥰
I enjoyed reading this perspective from “deep travelers” Michael and Brent, especially as someone who loves to travel but hasn’t been able to follow this approach. You really don’t acquire a deeper understanding of a culture and people when you skip from place to place, but sometimes you’re able to return and appreciate what you missed the first or second time. I do agree that, whether the visit is short or long, it’s the people who make the difference and that you remember in the long run.